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Diary
By lm (Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 09:59:20 AM EST) (all tags)
My cow-orkers informed me that today is cluserfuck Monday. I suggested they use the term goat screw instead. Years ago I was informed by a reliable source on things of great importance that this is the correct US Navy term for the sort of affairs involved.

Regardless of what my cow-orkers think, I've got a cup of coffee, a bag of fresh fruit, and a network connection. I'm ready to roll.

In other news, read my take on the bad parts of modernism.

Drivel follows.



Sunday was mostly uneventful. The day started off with chatting with a close friend who has long since moved away to Indiana who crashed on our couch the prior evening. She's slated to get married this coming May and was in town so family and friends could throw bridal showers. The chats weren't long enough but between her schedule and our family's schedule, we had to grasp what was available.

Some of the regular crew wasn't around at our Church services. I suspect a weekend voyage to a monastery. Plans were in the works for an all-male retreat. Due to the weather and other events, half the group backed out at the last minute and the trip was canceled. I suspect that one of my more gung-ho friends decided to make the trip anyway and took a couple of others that may not have been on the original list. Of course, I could be wrong.

Service was very nice. The opening sentence of our priest's homily haunts me. He threw out the idea that a parent can only be as happy as his or her unhappiest child. I find this an interesting idea. If one adopts a modernist understanding of happiness, the idea he put forth is probably not true. If you take a more classical view or more holistic view of the nature of humanity, it's a wakeup call.

After the liturgy, while we had an open discussion while the wee (and not so wee) tykes finished up Sunday school, he brought up the belated news of Antony Flew's conversion to theism at the intellectual level. I held my tongue but afterwards I explained a bit of the controversy surrounding these affairs. Once home I emailed him a link to the NY Times article The Turning of an Atheist which I think covers the brouhaha fairly well. In a lot of ways it's a sad story. And, regrettably, the Christians involved don't come off as being the guys in white hats.

I'm more than a bit disturbed by the tendency towards intellectual dishonesty by large swaths of the intelligent design movement. I don't think everyone involved is a charlatan and some of the folks involved do make a rigorous case for their beliefs. But more than a few people disingenuously use the theory as nothing more than a front to get god talk into public schools and other secular spheres. Aside from their intellectual dishonesty and lack of rigor giving Christianity a bad name, I don't think that presenting an argument for something akin to the Aristotelean first cause moves anyone any closer to Christianity.

Coffee hour came and went. We went home. My wife took a nap while I alternated between working on my Latin homework, fixing dinner, finishing up my essay on modernism and writing a letter to my grandmother. Just after my wife woke up, Dorian stopped by and we feasted on cabbage and ground beef, green beans and toasted cashews, and cheesy bread. After dinner, we watched a couple episodes of Millenium on DVD.

The other interesting thing that happened over the weekend was the news broke about Clinton going postal over Obama's allegedly misleading mailings on her stance on NAFTA and health care. On Friday, my wife received a mailing from Clinton's campaign saying the same thing about Obama with regards to NAFTA as the Obama campaign is supposedly saying about Clinton. Consequently, I thought Clinton's shrill pissing and moaning was pretty funny. She certainly seems intent on shooting herself in the foot. I think maybe her advisers need to read up on the latest research with regards to the results of negative campaigning and the typical perception of shrill women. I think a calm and collected approach could have been devastatingly effective for her but she chose the loud and angry approach. Sucks to be her. Her angry mode is going to get the same response with the general public as Dean's infamous scream in the 2004 primaries.

And now I needs seize the day.

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What day is today? | 22 comments (22 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
I suppose there's a few ID people by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #1 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 10:16:26 AM EST
who aren't in it for Creationism and Fundamentalism, but they're ignorant about the reasons for ID. I also have never considered rigor part of the Fundamentalist dogma, I don't think rigor can go very far with Literalism (I suppose there are Fundamentalists who aren't Literalists, I imagine they're rare.

What's the feel from ground zero between McCain and Obama?




I'm not so certain I'm a representative Ohioan by lm (2.00 / 0) #2 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 10:35:06 AM EST
But I will say that the only GOP candidate bumper stickers, billboards or yard signs that I've seen anywhere in Cincinnati are for Ron Paul. In way of contrast, I've seen maybe a dozen for Clinton and two to three times that for Obama.

That said, I do know quite a few people who supported McCain the last time around that were disappointed from the get-go that Bush got the nod back in 2000. I think the problem is that for those attracted to McCain because he's a maverick, Obama looks a whole heck of a lot more like a maverick right now.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Also, ID wasn't invented by Fundamentalists by lm (2.00 / 0) #4 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 11:13:52 AM EST
The argument from design goes back for millenia rather than decades. It was mostly ignored by Fundamentalist types until relatively recently probably because in its strongest modern variation to get to ID theory you need to accept accept a certain amount of the theory of evolution and reject   young earth creationsim. So for most of recent history, the proponents of ID have been anathema to fundamentalists.

But then the young earth creationism movement started losing a whole lot of new court battles and seats on school boards. Relabeling their views as ID which had a certain patina at least resembling modern science, allowed them to sneak in the god talk by the back door. IMO, it's a real goat screw.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

by ID I mean the ID espoused by young earth by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #5 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 11:36:44 AM EST
creationists, especially the ones who did a find and replace on Creationism with Intelligent Design. I have real problem with Deism.


[ Parent ]

Are those really all that common at all? by gzt (2.00 / 0) #6 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 11:44:05 AM EST
I mean, really, the ID I'm most familiar with - and that seems to take up the majority of the print material that I see (to the extent that I'm not aware of anything else) - is the sort of people who essentially believe in a theistically-guided evolution where certain features did not evolve per se, but were thrown in the mix by divine intervention. The number of gaps that get plugged in by the ID advocate, of course, varies by the advocate, but I've never really seen an ID advocate who said the earth was 7516 years old.

[ Parent ]

Of Pandas and People by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #7 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 11:55:36 AM EST
from Wiki, In drafts of the creation science textbook Of Pandas and People, almost all derivatives of the word "creation", such as "creationism", were replaced with the words "intelligent design".

I have yet to hear of feature that could not have evolved, though most ID proponents stop engaging in the discussion after we talk about the eye.


[ Parent ]

Right, but how old does OPAP say the earth is? by gzt (2.00 / 0) #8 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:07:01 PM EST
Sure, find-and-replace is pretty lame. ID is pretty lame. ID practitioners are pretty lame. "Irreducible complexity" and similar things are pretty lame. But, and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't really found that the mainstream ones teach young-earth creationism. I suppose there pretty much has to be a bunch of young-earth creationists who like certain of their arguments against evolution, but I haven't heard young-earthers that are too friendly with the label.

[ Parent ]

It side steps that question by georgeha (2.00 / 0) #9 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:18:21 PM EST
The text is non-committal on the age of the Earth, commenting that "Some [ID proponents] take the view that the earth's history can be compressed into a framework of thousands of years, while others adhere to the standard old earth chronology."


[ Parent ]

Fair enough. by gzt (2.00 / 0) #10 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:22:13 PM EST
Oy.

[ Parent ]

They're all over the place by lm (2.00 / 0) #11 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:58:42 PM EST
If you really want, I can give you some pointers on where to look. But I'd rather not.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

ID at National Review by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #3 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 11:10:22 AM EST
It's been fun reading Derbyshire's on that. ID drives him nuts. He sees, and calls out, the same dishonesty you do.

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)



wasn't there an Avengers episode by wumpus (4.00 / 1) #12 Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 07:10:41 PM EST
including a guy who considered bonsai to be evil?

Most importantly to this discussion is the observation that, to some extent, what it means to live a flourishing life is objective. Just as a diseased and shriveled oak tree cannot reach the full potential of what it means to be an oak tree, there are quite a few ways that a particular human being can be perverse, diseased or otherwise distressed and be said to objectively lack a full and abundant life.

Wumpus



If not, there should have been by Rogerborg (2.00 / 0) #13 Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:27:37 AM EST
Therefore, GHETTO, uh, 4.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
[ Parent ]

What would consitute intellectual honesty? by Rogerborg (2.00 / 0) #14 Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 08:31:03 AM EST
Based on absolutely no evidence at all, I choose to believe that an Invisible Sky Giant raped some skank who spawned a zombie baby who will save my soul from said Invisible Sky Giant's eternal wrath if I chant the right spells while pretending to cannibalise him.

Starting from that premise would at least be honest, but I'm not clear on where intellectual comes into it.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.


One place to start with intellectual honesty by lm (4.00 / 1) #15 Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:07:50 AM EST
Is not intentionally making other people's views into ad hominem strawman argument using a half dozen emotionally loaded pejoratives.

Another marker of intellectual honesty is the desire to actually have a discussion rather than to use a discussion as cover to get a certain ideology into the classroom.


There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Po-tay-to, poh-tah-to by Rogerborg (2.00 / 0) #16 Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:19:38 AM EST
Tell you what: when your core ideology allows that I might, just perhaps, not be damned to eternal torture unless I agree with you, then we can have a nice cup of tea and a chat.  I'll bring the fairy cakes.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
[ Parent ]

(Comment Deleted) by lm (4.00 / 1) #17 Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:33:33 AM EST

This comment has been deleted by lm



[ Parent ]

Name a date by lm (4.00 / 2) #18 Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 09:34:52 AM EST
Eastern Orthodoxy, while it rejects necessary universalism, allows for possible universalism. Assuming that you take a mostly modern definition of belief, there isn't anything in Orthodox doctrine that says you will be sent to hell simply for lacking agreement with the core doctrines of Orthodoxy.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Ooops, my mistake by Rogerborg (2.00 / 0) #19 Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:15:49 AM EST
When you talked about "church" and "priest" I thought you meant you were a Christian.  I accept that was a quaintly old fashioned inference to draw, but I'm an old fashioned sort of chap.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
[ Parent ]

Apparently by `Christian' you mean `Calvanist' by lm (2.00 / 0) #20 Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 10:17:56 AM EST
But that's okay, I wouldn't expect a fellow like yourself, being educated in a socialist state, to have a firm grasp of Christian theology.

There is no more degenerate kind of state than that in which the richest are supposed to be the best.
Cicero, The Republic
[ Parent ]

Consider me blinkered by brainwashing by Rogerborg (2.00 / 0) #21 Tue Feb 26, 2008 at 11:49:13 AM EST
I smuggled Positive thinking for Calvinists past the State censors, but I haven't yet felt any compelling determination to read it.

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Metus amatores matrum compescit, non clementia.
[ Parent ]

hey mate by nathan (2.00 / 0) #22 Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 10:57:15 AM EST
I don't think you're going to hell either, or at least if you are, it's for other reasons. Feel better?

[ Parent ]

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